Sorry, Rock, you're wrong.

Rock Hackshaw has a piece on marriage equality up, here, that I'm going to have to comment on. He's wrong, in my considered opinion, but wrong in a way that is instructive.

First, we need to acknowledge that the opposition to marriage equality is not even, in that sense, about marriage. It is about the acceptance of gays and lesbians in our society. That's the often enough unspoken context of this debate; one eschewed by advocates, who prefer to merely address the charges made by opponents, and by the opponents themselves, who often enough make their case not with actual gays and lesbians, but with the depraved hordes that they believe lie in wait beyond our ranks: the polygamists, the bestialists, and so on.

So it is in this case as well. I'll say to the charge that marriage equality opens the floodgates to polygamy and what not else simply this: show me the people who are demanding that. Then demonstrate to me that marriage equality will have the consequences you point to. You won't be able to, for one very simple reason: there is no constituency arguing on behalf of, say, bestiality, and your argument essentially comes down to the assertion, unproven and unprovable, that any change in the institution of marriage will destroy it. That's a non-sensical claim; the institution will be strengthened, not weakened, when a new class of citizens joins it. Marriage has undergone significant shifts over the past century, beginning with the end of the idea of marriage as a life-long contract. Whether that's good or not is another subject; but the institution's continued vitality is demonstrated, I think, by the fact that gays and lesbians care enough about it to want to join in its practice.

There's a very basic logical fallacy here: why would people want to join something that would be destroyed, unless they had confidence in its continued relevance? I ca't help but think of battles to integrate country clubs, where much the same arguments were made; lo and behold, women now play golf in various places, and the game itself shows no sign of expiring. Would that it did.

Rock further states:

Marriage has always been proscribed; there have always been gender and age pre-requisites, but no “single” person is prohibited from marriage: it’s just that their spouse must be of the opposite sex.

...and:

Look, equality has always been an abstract concept; I can even agree that it is a viable social goal. It’s just that trying to move from abstraction to reification is rather complicated for the most part.

This is one variegated argument, and it runs as follows: there is inequality in the law, and removing it is difficult and bound to face resistance.

To this I say, with Harlan, that the Constitution does not know or tolerate classes among citizens. The legal issue here isn't actually that the law can and does distinguish between individual citizens; for example, you need to fulfill certain requirements, laid out in law, to be able to pilot a Boeing. The corollary is this: what the present law does is state that gays and lesbians, as a class, can never meet the requirements for marriage as long as they belong to that class. In short, being gay is a permanent disability in the eyes of the law, one that no action of the individual can overcome. By contrast, to stay within the previous example, if you want to fly a jet, you can have your faulty eyesight corrected and take lessons; I could, if I so chose, take the steps that would allow me to fly a plane, which is presently not a right I have.

However, do what I will, I can never get married under present law.

To take that further, one could of course mention that I could, indeed, marry a woman; thing is, I have no such interest. Nor is it, in my mind, a legitimate demand of the state to require this of me. If you can't, say, search my home without a warrant, you most certainly can't take the much further and more violative step of telling me with whom I must live in that home.

Nor, frankly, is the positive appeal to inequality one that seems either very effective or very attractive. We've had this debate before, for example, about female suffrage. It was claimed at the time that question was current that extending the franchise to the weaker sex would corrupt the seriousness with which affairs of state must be contemplated. Before that, we had a national debate about extending the franchise to men who did not own real property, or didn't meet certain fiscal requirements; letting them take part in the deliberations of the nation would, it was said at the time, also surely corrupt the lofty debates among the propertied classes.

In short, none of this is new. The story of America is one of an ever-expanding reach of civil equality, irresistible as the tides. Gay and lesbian Americans are presently the ones being excluded from full participation in our society. I can't foresee, nor can anyone, what the next steps, the victories and reverses in that fight will be.

I can, however, tell you the outcome. We will sit at the table of brotherhood, just as did all those who came before us. It is but a question of time.

Bouldin's picture

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Gothanonymous Reader's picture

"I'll say to the charge that

"I'll say to the charge that marriage quality opens the floodgates to polygamy and what not else simply this: show me the people who are demanding that. Then demonstrate to me that marriage equality will have the consequences you point to. You won't be able to, for one very simple reason: there is no constituency arguing on behalf of, say, bestiality..."

Dude, wake up.

http://www.zoophilia.net/

http://www.drmiletski.com/prolog.html

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/07/27/1090693929585.html?from=mor...

http://www.beastforum.com/showforum-3.html

And from New Statesman:

http://www.newstatesman.com/200405170021

There is a bitter schism within the bestiality community, I learn from Understanding Bestiality and Zoophilia, a tome by an Israeli academic, Hani Miletski. There are the more numerous bestialists, who are rather sluttish. They are sadomasochistic, curious or exhibitionistic, full of ennui, or doing it for the money. They are responsible for the pornography and the sex shows. Zoophiles, however, feel married to their animal lovers.
...

Since the birth of the World Wide Web, zoophiles have organised themselves into online groups, such as Advent Partners, Stasya's web page and Furry MUCK. One zoophile says, "We come from every walk of life." Another opines: "There are as many women as men, but they keep quiet about it."

Some zoophiles consider their true spirits to be animals, and their human form a disappointment. Some sleep with animals of the same sex as them. Some wish to be cured. Others would prefer society to be cured, after which they and their beloveds would walk in Hyde Park, go skating and dine at Le Caprice.

...the zoophiles are gathering. They want acceptance and seek emancipation. They resent the stain of bestiality and a love that dare not squeak its name. We await a furry Oscar Wilde and a barnyard Stonewall cheering him on to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasburg.

Bouldin's picture

Heh.

Interesting; who knew?

However, the burden on those who would seek to use this as a weapon against the civil equality of other Americans who don't actually fuck dogs is this: show that marriage equality for GLBTs will lead to the next step. Demonstrate that your slippery slope has any validity.

You won't be able to do so, for one very simple reason: animals have no testatory power and are not legally competent to enter into any binding contract. That's not going to change if gay marriage becomes legal.

Therefore, the implied insult aside, this example doesn't even demonstrate what you claim it does.

mole333's picture

Zoophilia?

Hey, who doesn't like zoos. We take our kids to the little one in Park Slope all the time. Are people who are anti-gay also anti-zoo?

ROCK's picture

What are you saying Mike?

Because there is no "constituency" presently arguing on behalf of say "polygamists", does that mean that they won't show up at the dance, once the definiton of marriage is changed. It's something that I see gays conveniently ignore, since the ramifications they won't address. Also; I must admit that behind this debate there is definitely a thousand pound elephant/gorrilla sitting in the same room, but aren't gays the ones who started this? (To me) What I hear gays saying is this: we have every right to push for a change in the definition of marriage, but those who oppose don't have a right to push back. That my friend is not democracy. We are all vested in civility; we all have a right to our opinion. The challenge of gays is to convince the majority (or the courts) that redefining "mariage" is the right thing to do and also in the best interests of society. Thus gays should always strive for discourse on this issue, not for stifling debate and calling oponents names (homophobic).

Bouldin's picture

Rock...

...I think Wonk said this, but let me re-state it: the slippery slope argument fails unless you can convincingly demonstrate that it is valid. Simply asserting it is not enough. One could just as easily argue that it's the existence of marriage itself that opens the door to polygamy, so let's just outlaw marriage altogether; in fact, that's a far more convincing case, because it's not premised on future developments which may or may not happen.

Again, you're arguing from the disproven assertion that a change in or broadening of marriage will destroy it. We know that's not the case, because it's an ever-evolving institution. If it didn't destroy marriage to not treat women as the property of their husbands, or to make it dissoluble, this won't, either. Meanwhile, just by way of comparison, I can give you real-life examples from my own daily existence of what the costs of this inequality are. Why should I carry the burden of inequality under the law to ease your theoretical, unproven or disproven concerns, Rock? When do I get to vote on your marriage?

It comes down to this: marriage equality is part and parcel of the larger civil rights issue of LGBT rights. We are citizens, we are treated unequally from everyone else, and we suffer from a legal disability that, under present law, can't be removed. That's not equal justice under law, it cannot stand, and it will not stand.

I'm all for civility, and I like you a lot, and I love your writing; but I'll also not hesitate to tell you when you're wrong, and on this, you are. A note on freedom of speech: I'm not a big fan of name-calling, unless it involves rwallnerny, the idiot, in which case it's required for descriptive accuracy. But as a friend of mine once said to me, during the Imus controversy, as a white person, it's my job to sit down and listen when a black person tells me something is racist. By the same token, let me suggest to you that the same logic applies to all forms of animus, and that includes how straight people view gays and our rights. I saw the exchange between you and Wonk, and I'm sorry, he sliced your arguments into little pieces. I've just done the same, because, sorry, your argument about the fragility of marriage is demonstrably bogus.

I think you'll come around, Rock. Equality only for some isn't equality, and you know that. It'll percolate through, in time.

Heh.

ROCK's picture

Well, I guess it depends on where you are stationed............

MB: I was wondering where you were/lol. The idea that "WONK" sliced up my arguments must depend on what side of the issue you're on. I have had many who told me that I won the debate, but then, they were all on my side of the fence/tracks so to speak. Anyway let me publicly reiterate that your decison to publish my column is something that I will always respect, admire and commend you for. I know that most of you who argue against my position are highly vested in the issue, and as such, coming from one human being to another (and to all of you at this blog), thanks for facilitating the discourse. Civility reigns.

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